I think it likely that if pardoned, Trump would run again in the following election. He would say he was innocent--that would be his marketing of a pardon. It would also be unreasonable to pardon him for crimes that would call for a very stiff sentence for anyone else. There would be a sense in the country that national security was not to be taken seriously. Remember that it was not so long ago that activities seriously threatening our national security were deemed to be treason. The punishment for that was severe indeed. I can’t see this as a pardonable offense. The very lives of those serving the country, whether in the military or national security agencies, could be ended because of Trump’s shenanigans.
I would like to say though, that we are long past the time of taking any "conservative" talking head or opinion writer seriously. They have been shilling for Trump since 2016 (for the most part, remember the Never Trump cover or NR.....ahhh those were the days) These people have joined the grift wagon and they are not getting off. The notion that Lowery, Theissen of any of the others give a damn about "principles" and what is best for the country is laughable.
There was the two day respit right aftert the insurrection but they soon put their fingers in the air and detected a return to the MAGA winds so back to vociferously defending their boy was in order.
Barring a health event, Trump will be the nominee in 2024. His Republican opponents in the race are all (except Christi & Hutchison) afraid of him. That fear paralyzes them from saying what they know is true - Trump is a criminal. Therefore Trump will float easily to the nomination. Only the voters can change the outcome of the 2024 presidential election. Hopefully enough independents and never Trump voters keep him from returning to the White House where he will continue to damage our country's safety & security.
I would love for the conservative writers to stop writing about what the Dems can do to bow to Trump in order to save the country and instead focus on making suggestions to their own colleagues. How about Thiessen write a piece on different ways Republican candidates can message that Trump is indeed guilty to the base. Maybe Lowry can ask that GOP pols stop suggesting there is a Dem controlled deep state out to get Trump and all conservatives. Etc. I would love to see them hold their own team accountable every now and then.
Beside simple fear for their lives now and their liberties in some future Trumpist America—'Fear the Shallow State!'—they all still covet his voters and think it better that someone else take him out politically and take the hit for it, just as in 2015-16.
Trump has to be tried, convicted and imprisoned so the next scumbag thinks twice about trying to overthrow the Constitution.
As far as his followers are being upset is concerned, it's obvious my patriot ancestors didn't kill enough of their traitor ancestors when they had the opportunity.
I agree with all you say here, Damon, which surprises me; I didn't think you would come right out and support broad pardons of Trump, but given your past articulation of your belief that nothing good can come from dragging Trump through the courts, the fact that you're now saying, in reference to those same courts, that "the only way out is through," is (to me) a pleasant surprise. What changed your mind, or do you feel that it's been changed at all?
I’d guess it’s that we know more about the documents case and it seems more serious than it did originally. Also, as he says, the presence of other indictments, actual and potential, lessens the impact of a pardon and makes it look more frivolous.
Yes, largely what Evets says. I'd put it this way: What I most wanted to avoid was a federal indictment of a former and possibly future president by a DOJ in the hands of the other party. But Trump's actions as alleged in the documents indictment were so egregious that there really was no reasonable way to avoid prosecution. Now that this bridge has been crossed, "there is no way out but through."
Historian Heather Cox Richardson asks what has past instances of leniency brought us? Did pardoning Nixon drain the poison out of the system or did it emboldened Bill Clinton to try and bluff (lie) is way out of the fact he lied to a (civil) grand jury? Certainly the pardons and leniency shown after the Civil War did not result in a "more perfect Union", but rather gave those defeated a century long defacto victory. No, leniency has not proven to be an effective option--unless those receiving the leniency admit their actions and their consequences.
Pardoning Trump won’t drain the poison from the system. He is the poisoner in chief and the principal beneficiary of that poison.
Less than 24 hrs. after the verdict in the E. Jean Carroll case, he was back on national TV defaming her yet again. Why would anyone expect anything different if he were pardoned in any criminal case? He’d just call it total exoneration and be back at his criming the next day.
pardoning Trump just makes it worse. It gives Trump something he can use to show that 'see even Joe Biden thinks I was unfairly targeted!' which isn't true. It does not stop us from having more indictments, and ultimately (with a figure like Trump) just emboldens him. As you said: Trump is not going anywhere and he will not express remorse. This is not a Richard Nixon situation where Nixon was done (dead as a doornail) post presidency. He is very much alive, and the justice department should be able to do its job.
We were set on a dangerous road in 2016, when both parties nominated candidates least-liked by those outside their party. That election turned not on preference, but who non-partisans disliked more. Many of us held our noses, others of us refused both choices.
Trump's electoral win despite losing a majority of Americans' votes did not humble him, but made him more brash than ever. His party rallied to his cause, Will Saletan has an excellent piece examining this via Lindsey Graham, and now Republicans urge Americans to formally place their party above every law because otherwise they will feel attacked.
That the GOP knowingly nominated, campaigned for, elected, and now backs a man who they all admit breaks laws with impunity is beside the point...they say.
But it is the point.
If Republicans find themselves safely beyond the rule of law, that's it. Unless they are held to the legal standards =they wrote and enacted= for the nation, this grand experiment in self-governance will have fallen to a lawless partisanship..
They way out is through. The Rule of Law will survive only if the law is followed.
Let's presume that a Republican wins the general election for President and grants Donald Trump a pardon. And that Mr. Trump is pardoned for all the other alleged infractions he has committed. What will he do after that? He'll run for President. He will primary out all the other contenders and we will be plunged back into our current dilemma. The law will have been negated, the legal system discredited and politics placed above the other balancing forces of government. Factionalism will reign supreme. Is pardoning this man a wise course to follow?
I still can’t get my head around the fact that half of the electorate actually wants this guy to lead the country, or at least will enable it. It’s full “Black Mirror” territory. Utter insanity. He sat down to dinner with a neo-Nazi a couple months ago, and then steadfastly refused to disavow it. And he’s the leading Republican candidate.
Just remember that Germans weren't generally stupid or demons. True, they had much less experience with rights and self-government than we, and an Authority Addiction worse than ours, but I am confident that my American neighbours could be persuaded to Love the Leader and to kill me, and maybe I them, though most of my relatives' having been murdered so and relatedly tends to check that particular bad wolf in me.
Take the advice of those writers? Those DJT apologists? Who for years have excused, enabled that child? No forking way. Thank you Damon for putting it more kindly than I could.
I think it likely that if pardoned, Trump would run again in the following election. He would say he was innocent--that would be his marketing of a pardon. It would also be unreasonable to pardon him for crimes that would call for a very stiff sentence for anyone else. There would be a sense in the country that national security was not to be taken seriously. Remember that it was not so long ago that activities seriously threatening our national security were deemed to be treason. The punishment for that was severe indeed. I can’t see this as a pardonable offense. The very lives of those serving the country, whether in the military or national security agencies, could be ended because of Trump’s shenanigans.
Your final sentence says it all.
I would like to say though, that we are long past the time of taking any "conservative" talking head or opinion writer seriously. They have been shilling for Trump since 2016 (for the most part, remember the Never Trump cover or NR.....ahhh those were the days) These people have joined the grift wagon and they are not getting off. The notion that Lowery, Theissen of any of the others give a damn about "principles" and what is best for the country is laughable.
There was the two day respit right aftert the insurrection but they soon put their fingers in the air and detected a return to the MAGA winds so back to vociferously defending their boy was in order.
Barring a health event, Trump will be the nominee in 2024. His Republican opponents in the race are all (except Christi & Hutchison) afraid of him. That fear paralyzes them from saying what they know is true - Trump is a criminal. Therefore Trump will float easily to the nomination. Only the voters can change the outcome of the 2024 presidential election. Hopefully enough independents and never Trump voters keep him from returning to the White House where he will continue to damage our country's safety & security.
I would love for the conservative writers to stop writing about what the Dems can do to bow to Trump in order to save the country and instead focus on making suggestions to their own colleagues. How about Thiessen write a piece on different ways Republican candidates can message that Trump is indeed guilty to the base. Maybe Lowry can ask that GOP pols stop suggesting there is a Dem controlled deep state out to get Trump and all conservatives. Etc. I would love to see them hold their own team accountable every now and then.
Beside simple fear for their lives now and their liberties in some future Trumpist America—'Fear the Shallow State!'—they all still covet his voters and think it better that someone else take him out politically and take the hit for it, just as in 2015-16.
That is a lovely thought Bryan, but that ship sailed years ago…..
A boy can dream...
Trump has to be tried, convicted and imprisoned so the next scumbag thinks twice about trying to overthrow the Constitution.
As far as his followers are being upset is concerned, it's obvious my patriot ancestors didn't kill enough of their traitor ancestors when they had the opportunity.
I agree with all you say here, Damon, which surprises me; I didn't think you would come right out and support broad pardons of Trump, but given your past articulation of your belief that nothing good can come from dragging Trump through the courts, the fact that you're now saying, in reference to those same courts, that "the only way out is through," is (to me) a pleasant surprise. What changed your mind, or do you feel that it's been changed at all?
I’d guess it’s that we know more about the documents case and it seems more serious than it did originally. Also, as he says, the presence of other indictments, actual and potential, lessens the impact of a pardon and makes it look more frivolous.
Yes, largely what Evets says. I'd put it this way: What I most wanted to avoid was a federal indictment of a former and possibly future president by a DOJ in the hands of the other party. But Trump's actions as alleged in the documents indictment were so egregious that there really was no reasonable way to avoid prosecution. Now that this bridge has been crossed, "there is no way out but through."
Historian Heather Cox Richardson asks what has past instances of leniency brought us? Did pardoning Nixon drain the poison out of the system or did it emboldened Bill Clinton to try and bluff (lie) is way out of the fact he lied to a (civil) grand jury? Certainly the pardons and leniency shown after the Civil War did not result in a "more perfect Union", but rather gave those defeated a century long defacto victory. No, leniency has not proven to be an effective option--unless those receiving the leniency admit their actions and their consequences.
Pardoning Trump won’t drain the poison from the system. He is the poisoner in chief and the principal beneficiary of that poison.
Less than 24 hrs. after the verdict in the E. Jean Carroll case, he was back on national TV defaming her yet again. Why would anyone expect anything different if he were pardoned in any criminal case? He’d just call it total exoneration and be back at his criming the next day.
pardoning Trump just makes it worse. It gives Trump something he can use to show that 'see even Joe Biden thinks I was unfairly targeted!' which isn't true. It does not stop us from having more indictments, and ultimately (with a figure like Trump) just emboldens him. As you said: Trump is not going anywhere and he will not express remorse. This is not a Richard Nixon situation where Nixon was done (dead as a doornail) post presidency. He is very much alive, and the justice department should be able to do its job.
Our way out *is* through.
We were set on a dangerous road in 2016, when both parties nominated candidates least-liked by those outside their party. That election turned not on preference, but who non-partisans disliked more. Many of us held our noses, others of us refused both choices.
Trump's electoral win despite losing a majority of Americans' votes did not humble him, but made him more brash than ever. His party rallied to his cause, Will Saletan has an excellent piece examining this via Lindsey Graham, and now Republicans urge Americans to formally place their party above every law because otherwise they will feel attacked.
That the GOP knowingly nominated, campaigned for, elected, and now backs a man who they all admit breaks laws with impunity is beside the point...they say.
But it is the point.
If Republicans find themselves safely beyond the rule of law, that's it. Unless they are held to the legal standards =they wrote and enacted= for the nation, this grand experiment in self-governance will have fallen to a lawless partisanship..
They way out is through. The Rule of Law will survive only if the law is followed.
Let's presume that a Republican wins the general election for President and grants Donald Trump a pardon. And that Mr. Trump is pardoned for all the other alleged infractions he has committed. What will he do after that? He'll run for President. He will primary out all the other contenders and we will be plunged back into our current dilemma. The law will have been negated, the legal system discredited and politics placed above the other balancing forces of government. Factionalism will reign supreme. Is pardoning this man a wise course to follow?
I still can’t get my head around the fact that half of the electorate actually wants this guy to lead the country, or at least will enable it. It’s full “Black Mirror” territory. Utter insanity. He sat down to dinner with a neo-Nazi a couple months ago, and then steadfastly refused to disavow it. And he’s the leading Republican candidate.
Just remember that Germans weren't generally stupid or demons. True, they had much less experience with rights and self-government than we, and an Authority Addiction worse than ours, but I am confident that my American neighbours could be persuaded to Love the Leader and to kill me, and maybe I them, though most of my relatives' having been murdered so and relatedly tends to check that particular bad wolf in me.
Take the advice of those writers? Those DJT apologists? Who for years have excused, enabled that child? No forking way. Thank you Damon for putting it more kindly than I could.